Curse

Draikin · Jun 21, 2008, 02:32 PM // 14:32

With the state the game seems to be in at the moment, ArenaNet really needs to do something if they want PvP to survive until GW 2 is released. Instead of actual discussions about the recent skill balance, we get threads like this where people simply vent their frustration. Regina recently commented on the situation at Anet, saying that they're currently focusing on GW 2 and nobody is working exclusively on GW 1 anymore, however:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

there is good news in that GW1 will be getting a game designer and a programmer who will be completely dedicated to working on GW1. We don't have a timeframe on when this will happen, because it all depends on when we can find replacements for them so they can move from the GW2 team without impacting GW2 development

Now this is good news but it probably won't change anything about skill balancing or PvP in general. I imagine the current situation with Izzy working on both GW 1 and GW 2 at the same time is at least part of the reason for the lack of support for PvP at the moment. People are told to discuss changes with Izzy on his Wiki talk page but he obviously doesn't have time to respond, giving people even more reason to think that ArenaNet simply doesn't care.

What I mean by saying that perhaps it's time for a new skill balancer is not that Izzy should be fired, but rather that we need someone to work on balancing GW 1 exclusively so that Izzy can spend his time working on GW 2. While obviously that person would need to have a good understanding of PvP in GW, I think most importantly he/she would have the time to actually discuss changes on forums and really listen to the PvP community when it comes to changing skills. Any change at all is probably a good thing at this point and if anything it would at least show that ArenaNet does in fact still care about balancing the game.

DarkNecrid · Jun 21, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

The problem with this is you need to find a skill balancer who knows a ton about Guild Wars PvP and lives near their location and/or can fly there. (unless if they randomly decided it'd be okay if he conveyed shit over the internet, which is actually fairly possible now with webcams and such)

Which is really hard.

But I do /agree. Splitting one guy between 2 games for balancing is not good, and I can only assume is hurting GW2 in some way as well.

EDIT:
He hasn't replied or commented on anything on his talk page in forever.

Mitchel · Jun 21, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

We do need a new balance. Then we need a balance to balance the stuff broken in last balance. Then we need a balance to balance the stuff broken in last balance. Then we need a balance to balance the stuff broken in last balance.

Billiard · Jun 21, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

He hasn't replied or commented on anything on his talk page in forever.

Izzy doesn't like forums and tends to talk to people directly instead. This is one reason why some folks don't really know what he is up to, but a lot of other people do.

Greedy Gus · Jun 21, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Regardless of what he's up to, or how he does it, the results have to stand on their own at the end of the day. And he hasn't produced good results in almost a year.

Stockholm · Jun 21, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Leave Izzy on GW1, that way GW2 will get a fair chance to make it.

DarkNecrid · Jun 21, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

Izzy doesn't like forums and tends to talk to people directly instead. This is one reason why some folks don't really know what he is up to, but a lot of other people do.

But a Wiki talk page he directly set up is not a forum, and is talking to people directly, (well, so is a forum) maybe not voice to voice, but text to text is still important.

Communication with players besides a select few is pretty important too, and lately his past few balances have been pretty horrible!! (or rather, horrible compared to what they could be / have been)

EDIT:
Yeah I know he's being conservative too, but conservative isn't gonna get us anywhere fast. A lot of people have pointed out a lot of issues for months now (power creep etc) and still hasn't been addressed.

DutchSmurf · Jun 21, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Now this is good news

How? One of the two people is a Linsey Murdock, who has been responsible for some of the best quests in GW, but won't make any difference for PvP. So with her as game designer, you can guess the task of the programmer. The chance anything other then skills will change for the PvP side is close to 0. Just as close to 0 as the last year actually.

If you want to get hope tho, Linsey (according to her wiki) worked on "Balance in the Norn Fighting Tournament"....

Draikin · Jun 21, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

How? One of the two people is a Linsey Murdock, who has been responsible for some of the best quests in GW, but won't make any difference for PvP. So with her as game designer, you can guess the task of the programmer. The chance anything other then skills will change for the PvP side is close to 0. Just as close to 0 as the last year actually.

That's why I said that "it probably won't change anything about skill balancing or PvP in general". I assume the two will only work on implementing PvE features, which is why I think ArenaNet should get at least one other person to work exclusively on skill balance in GW 1.

pah01 · Jun 21, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Hire Ensign Part - time. Just dont forget to give him ultimate authority over balance. I mean a lot of people will argue with izzy but who in the community can argue with Ensign????

Joe

Div · Jun 21, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

The biggest problem is the fact that Anet has such a small employee base, and the people are trying to work on both GW1 and GW2 at the same time. Also, they like testing random VoD-type stuff (like ViO a few months back) that may or may not work, so a lot of their efforts are going into there right now (a lot of people don't even know about this). It really takes away from the attention paid to current skill balance.

And while I agree with their "we must analyze every aspect of how our skill changes will affect the game" and believe that is definitely the way to go in preventing additional dumb stuff from coming up, it's funny how they have "analyzed everything" but yet still let things like SF slide through.

pah01 · Jun 21, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

yes and whats extra funny is random buffs to retarded shit like symoblic strike.

Div · Jun 21, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

yes and whats extra funny is random buffs to retarded shit like symoblic strike.

They thought about it very carefully. They even used the random comment generator to give a reason for why they buffed that skill.

Bobby2 · Jun 22, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

Izzy doesn't like forums and tends to talk to people directly instead. This is one reason why some folks don't really know what he is up to, but a lot of other people do.

Bad communication on his part.

Should Izzy be fired for neglecting his PR duties? If there is indeed 'no time for him to respond' this leaves me doubting about the state of business at ANet itself.

Better communication would
- appease GW1's player base
- increase trust in the quality of GW2's PvP aspect

DarkNecrid · Jun 22, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Should Izzy be fired for neglecting his PR duties?

Izzy doesn't have PR duties.

But he needs to better integrate himself because the actual people with PR duties blow at representing us.

Draikin · Jun 22, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Why? Why would they want pvp to survive until gw2 is released? There is no reason.

Because they'll still want to keep the PvP community playing GW until the sequel is released. PvE in GW is nothing special compared to other games out there, so there's no doubt the PvE community will be moving on if there's no additional content being added. The depth of gameplay offered by PvP in GW on the other hand was (is?) better than anything the competition has to offer, so it can retain players a lot longer if they can just manage to keep things balanced.

Yoshikuni Mahsu · Jun 22, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

One thing id like to point out is that after a skill balance, skills dont change, yet imba shit comes up.

For example, X skills are imba, izzy and friends balances the game to make X skills normal, while probably changing Y skills for the better. Here you're basically changing X imba skills for Y imba skills.

Or X skills are imba, and are then balanced, no other skills are buffed. A month or two later some imba skills/builds pop out of nowhere. Something id like to point out is for that month there was nothing imba, no skills changed, everything was the same yet imba stuff still surfaced. This is because of the massive numbers of this skills, not to mention the attribute and profession combination possible, in this game, it can take that long to fish out the overpowered stuff.

Now if Izzy sticks to the 2nd situation and does this repeatedly, you'd think that at some point everything imba would eventually be fished out and everything would be right in the world? Wrong.

The problem is that if Izzy nerfs and buffs at the same time, its basically switching Imba stuff, on the OTHER hand, if izzy repeatedly nerfs without buffs he's basically passively buffing skills. I love examples so here we go again:

X Skill does 70 dmg
Y Skill does 150 dmg and is Imba at the time
Z Skill does 90 dmg

Izzy nerfs Y skill to 50 dmg.

X skill is 70 dmg
Y skill does 50 dmg
Z skill does 90 dmg and is now the new imba skill

Izzy nerfs Z skill to 30 dmg.

X skill does 70 dmg now X skill is imba
Y skill does 50 dmg
Z skill does 30 dmg

Izzy nerfs X skill to 20 dmg.

X skill does 20 dmg.
Y skill does 50 dmg and now is once again the imba skill.
Z skill does 30 dmg

Now the chain has started completely over, my point is basically if you continue to nerf the overpowered skills, weak skills, even though they haven't been changed or buffed whatsoever, will be strong simply because all the other once-powerful skills suck.

The only time the game can be truly balanced is when X, Y, and Z do the exact same damage, and when that happens you've got a game with a bunch of the same skills. Now obviously theres a billion other factors than damage, as that was a simple example, but those factors just make it even more difficult/complicated to balance.

Frank Dudenstein · Jun 22, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Because they'll still want to keep the PvP community playing GW until the sequel is released. PvE in GW is nothing special compared to other games out there, so there's no doubt the PvE community will be moving on if there's no additional content being added. The depth of gameplay offered by PvP in GW on the other hand was (is?) better than anything the competition has to offer, so it can retain players a lot longer if they can just manage to keep things balanced.

You are obviously not an economist.

The cost-benfit ratio does not justify spending 2 FTEs to make 12 people happy.

PvE - even at this stage - has a far more favorable return.

deya · Jun 22, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

I agree on the part that working on two different games is bad. What I don't agree that there's one person somewhere who could do better job at balancing this game than Izzy. It's always very easy to look aside and moan till the break of dawn without actually understanding how hard that can be.

around · Jun 22, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

X skill is 70 dmg
Y skill does 50 dmg
Z skill does 90 dmg and is now the new imba skill

No it's not. Skill X, in addition to doing damage, is likely to have some other effect to compensate. You also don't have one skill doing wayyyyy more damage than the others, which is what imba is about.

Imba is not the same as strong.